News/Current Events
Source: Why Arabs Can't Fight - The Arab Culture Theory
Published: May 15-16 1998 Author: Kenneth M. Pollack
Posted on 12/12/01 5:19 PM Pacific by Obey The D

1 posted on 12/12/01 5:19 PM Pacific by Obey The D
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I think this is a bunch of hokum. To attribute all the flaws of Arab armies to "culture" is really stretching it.

2 posted on 12/12/01 5:24 PM Pacific by billybudd
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Imagine you are in a Caravan.
In it you have all your Camels, wives and children traveling with you. Your servants and loyal guards accompany you.
A huge Dust Storm overtakes you and your Caravan. After many days you are the only one who reaches the oasis , the sole survivor.
You have lost everything in life you value, but you survived.
Years later you retell the story to your new friends and family.
You speak of your GREAT VICTORY! Over the dessert.
This is the mindset we are dealing with.

Iraq is the perfect example. Their army destroyed and humiliated , yet they celebrate their victory over the US. Just Surviving in the cruel world is victory.
We ignore this at our peril. They only have to win once, then they will not hold back. They will not stop due to international pressures. Israel knows this, we should pay attention

3 posted on 12/12/01 5:32 PM Pacific by TAP ONLINE
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I'll admitt that Arab armies of late have sucked.
However, the Arabs have been great warrior in the past. Ho else did a bunch of unruly tribes form the wastelands of Arabia conquer the Persian Empire, sweep into the Indus Valley, conquer the Levant and North Africa from the Byzantines, and take over Spain in under 100 years?
But for the Franks and Khazars, Christendpm would have collapsed. (Ironic, huh?)

4 posted on 12/12/01 5:39 PM Pacific by rmlew
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The same percentage of Arabs have ever been in a Camel caravan across the desert as the percentage of Americans who have ever driven cattle to market wearing a cowboy hat and riding a horse.

Modern Arabs are even more urbanized and citified than Americans are; a great many have likely never seen an actual camel in person.

5 posted on 12/12/01 5:43 PM Pacific by John H K
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Maybe it's a little simpler than all that.

Maybe you can take a desert goat-herder and train him to operate modern equipment. But at heart he's still a desert goat-herder.

When the chips are down he will react like a goat-herder.

6 posted on 12/12/01 5:43 PM Pacific by LibKill
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So far, the Taliban and the Iraqi forces have folded when they came up against U.S. No contest. The record of Israel's opponents over the years hasn't been good either. Then there's the Iran-Iraq war debacle. Culture the problem? Military culture at the very least, seems to me.

7 posted on 12/12/01 5:47 PM Pacific by dr_who
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What you say is true, but how different is the military since then? Heck, since twenty years ago, even. And one thing we do know about Arab culture is their resistance to change.

8 posted on 12/12/01 5:48 PM Pacific by stands2reason
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"But for the Franks and Khazars, Christendpm would have collapsed."

Where do the Khazars come in? It was Charlemagne, the Hispanics, and the Poles that saved Christendom.

9 posted on 12/12/01 5:53 PM Pacific by Marduk
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They only have to win once, then they will not hold back. They will not stop due to international pressures. Israel knows this, we should pay attention

We understand this as well.

The Arab street knows that big ole bombs coming from big ole bombers will destroy Iraq, Allah or no Allah. The Afghan street did nothing to help the Taliban, and Iraqis are sick to death of Saddam Hussein.

45 days of bombing and we and Turks could drive down Main Street, Baghdad.

10 posted on 12/12/01 5:57 PM Pacific by sinkspur
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There are barely any Arab goat-herders, either.

They're 95% city boys, actually. In Desert Storm there were probably more farm boys and herders as a % of US forces than there were on the Iraqi side. The Arab population of the world is heavily concentrated in Cairo, Damascus, Baghdad, Basra, Riyadh, etc...in the cities. They don't have nearly the spread out suburbs and rural small towns we do.

One of the great stupid media myths of Desert Storm was how all these experienced desert fighters were going to kick our asses..actually, Iraqis don't live out in the desert..they live in either cities, or marshland. NONE of the Iran-Iraq war was fought in the desert, so the Iraqi Army had NO desert fighting experience to speak of. The US Army was the one that had spent a long time training in desert warfare, at Ft. Irwin.

11 posted on 12/12/01 5:58 PM Pacific by John H K
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I've got another theory: they're cowards!

12 posted on 12/12/01 5:59 PM Pacific by Standing Wolf
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Arab culture tends to promote conformity with group norms over innovation and independent thinking.

Arab culture tends to promote a rather severe deference to authority which discourages initiative among subordinates.

Arab culture tends to promote the avoidance of shame at all costs which discourages an individual from accepting responsibility and encourages the manipulation of information to conceal shameful acts.

Arab culture tends to promote a fierce loyalty to the group which encourages individuals to shield friends and relatives from from shame and reinforces the emphasis on conformity.

Arab culture tends to consider manual labor to be shameful, and considers technical and scientific work as a form of manual labor.

Sounds a lot like some of the Fortune 500 corporations I've worked with...

13 posted on 12/12/01 6:03 PM Pacific by okie01
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"I've got another theory: they're cowards!"

So how come these "cowards" seem to produce more people willing to die in suicide attacks per capita than any other people?

14 posted on 12/12/01 6:04 PM Pacific by Marduk
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The reason they can't "win" a fight is they are just coming out of the stone age.

15 posted on 12/12/01 6:08 PM Pacific by WileyCoyote22
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For years Americans have been called cowboys. Few of us ever saw the range, but our heritage of the west did bring us into the modern world. We are talking about a mindset here. I was not saying all Arabs were camel jockeys. I was saying that SURVIVAL is all that seems to matter. To live to fight another day, ultimately to overwhelm your enemies, be ruthless and push them into the sea or destroy the Great Satan

16 posted on 12/12/01 6:09 PM Pacific by TAP ONLINE
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Marduk asked:
"But for the Franks and Khazars, Christendpm would have collapsed." Where do the Khazars come in? It was Charlemagne, the Hispanics, and the Poles that saved Christendom
The Khazars blocked teh Muslim Armies twice. They blocked them in the Caucuses and at the Urals in the 2 Arab-Khazar Wars. But for these wars, the Muslims armies would have swept into what is now Russia and flanked the Byzantines. Eastern Europe would have been takn by the Muslims.
For more info, go to www.Khazaria.com .

17 posted on 12/12/01 6:10 PM Pacific by rmlew
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That's interesting. I'll have to check on that. But Eastern Europe was under Muslim rule already, wasn't it? Russia was ruled by Muslim Mongols and Southeast Europe was ruled by Muslim Turks.

18 posted on 12/12/01 6:12 PM Pacific by Marduk
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One really big problem they have is how they select their leadership. Many of the arab states select all of their officers from royal bloodlines. You won't see any rural background Chuck Yeager types flying a arab fighter.

19 posted on 12/12/01 6:13 PM Pacific by USNBandit
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At the end of the Roman Empire everyone in Europe was drunk on either mead, bear, or wine to relive their pain from the overbearing rule of the Romans. This is why an eastern invaders and an incompetant army of Arabs were able to roll over much of Europe.

20 posted on 12/12/01 6:15 PM Pacific by LoneRangerMassachusetts
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I suggest everyone here look at "Carnage and Culture" by Victor Hanson. It will support this view, but offer strong historical analysis of some of the objections to it raised here.

21 posted on 12/12/01 6:16 PM Pacific by LS
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So how come these "cowards" seem to produce more people willing to die in suicide attacks per capita than any other people?

They've got nothing to live for. That, coupled with their nutty view of the afterlife, and you'll get a few zealots ready to blow themselves up.

Suicide is a result of cowardice, or mental illness.

Notice that the Arab leaders don't off themselves. They've got a cause to live for.

22 posted on 12/12/01 6:22 PM Pacific by sinkspur
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I've got another theory: they're cowards!

That's it. They follow leaders who are away hiding in caves or wandering around wearing women's burkas.

23 posted on 12/12/01 6:23 PM Pacific by FITZ
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On the other hand the so-called Arab culture is a perfect example of why racism does not work and ultimately is destructive for those who practice it.

The Arabs are flagrantly racist and yet, because of the mindset of the intelligentsia of the West who effectively define "racism" and because of Oil, they are not called racist. The dominant Keiretsu style businesses, including the oil companies seek to avoid their being called the racists that they are and so do the leftist intelligentsia of the West because they want racism only to be used as a weapon against European and particularly American white people. The blacks of America don't want to see the truth about Arab racism because so many of them have taken up Islam as a way of getting at American "Whitey" and identify with the Arab sense of envy and of being technogically inferior and downtrodden. So Arab racism grows ever more flagrant and labels as discriminatory those who dare to call attention to it.

24 posted on 12/12/01 6:24 PM Pacific by AmericanVictory
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I've got another theory: they're cowards!

LOL you wouldn't be profiling our poor arab friends now wouldja?

25 posted on 12/12/01 6:27 PM Pacific by ninonitti
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So how come these "cowards" seem to produce more people willing to die in suicide attacks per capita than any other people?

A culture where a few of the men can have many wives leaves the other men without women and families to live and work for so they must die to maintain and promote the culture. They use religion to convince these fools that they will have their women after they die for Islam, it's not bravery, they won't have anything on this earth and believe they will attain it by giving themselves in suicide.

26 posted on 12/12/01 6:28 PM Pacific by FITZ
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I think you're engaging in double-think. To sacrifice one's life for a cause is no way cowardly. It is the polar opposite of cowardice.

The Arabs may have a lot of flaws but I donb't think we can legitimately consider them cowards.

27 posted on 12/12/01 6:32 PM Pacific by Marduk
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Arab culture tends to promote conformity with group norms over innovation and independent thinking.

Arab culture tends to promote a rather severe deference to authority which discourages initiative among subordinates.

Arab culture tends to promote the avoidance of shame at all costs which discourages an individual from accepting responsibility and encourages the manipulation of information to conceal shameful acts.

Arab culture tends to promote a fierce loyalty to the group which encourages individuals to shield friends and relatives from from shame and reinforces the emphasis on conformity.

While all this may very well be true about Arab culture, I submit that in no way does it reflect on their competence as fighters. The Japanese - The Imperial Japanese Army, to be precise - was well renowned for possessing every and all of the qualities listed above, and they were among the very best fighting forces in history.

28 posted on 12/12/01 6:33 PM Pacific by Lazarus Long
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Marduk wrote:
That's interesting. I'll have to check on that. But Eastern Europe was under Muslim rule already, wasn't it? Russia was ruled by Muslim Mongols and Southeast Europe was ruled by Muslim Turks.
Timing matters. In 700, much of Eastern Europe was still pagan or nominally Christian. The Russians did not become Christian until the 10th Century.
The Mongols were not really Muslim when they invaded. The Golden Horde was a very heterogenious group. Some Mongols were Muslim, others, Bhuddist, and many remained Animist. Like most Steppe peoples, the Mongols did not use religion as a unifying factor. They were tolerant. The Kahanate of the Golden Horde and the Khanate of Khazan were non-centralised states. The Mongols and Tatars kept a core set of cities and rulled Russia indireclty keeping the Chrstian city states as vassal tributaries.

Compare this to the Arab Muhajadhin who forced conversion to Islam and set up theocratic dictatorships.
The Ottoman Turks split the difference, having faily centralized government with institutionalised discrimination. However, The Ottomans did not force conversions, except on the boys who were kidnapped to form the Janissary corps. Furthermore, by the 15th century, Eastern Europe and the Balakans were thoroughly Christian.

29 posted on 12/12/01 6:34 PM Pacific by rmlew
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Keegan has written well on this topic. His thesis basically is that Arabs/Eastern Armies do not dig in for the long haul and lack the organizational structure of western armies/society.

Others suggest different motives. Fatalism amongst the faithful is one.

I favor Keegan's view. The west, besides having technological supremacy, enforces discipline better. Not through "chain dogs" behind the front, but the knowledge amongst the troops, that there is no escape. You can't really run, because western societies keep track of not only the dead but the living. If you were with such and such a military unit and do not possess the paperwork to show your discharge you can't function in our world.

There is no village or clan to return to. You will be found out. Of course there is honor and duty and all that but I would imagine those sensibilities are more pronounced today in the Islamic world than the west.

I would really wonder though, if the shoe were on the other foot, and the Islamic world had equal firepower, if, American troops could dig in their heels and fight as well as, say the Wehrmacht did in 1944.

30 posted on 12/12/01 6:36 PM Pacific by abwehr
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"While all this may very well be true about Arab culture, I submit that in no way does it reflect on their competence as fighters. The Japanese - The Imperial Japanese Army, to be precise - was well renowned for possessing every and all of the qualities listed above, and they were among the very best fighting forces in history."

The same is also said of the Germans. Yet fact remains that Germany and Japan lost the war because they were hopelessly outnumbered, not because of any military or cultural inferiority. Indeed what is surprising is that Germany and Japan were able to hold out for so long, considering how outnumbered they were. One could make the case then that the qualities on that list may even be beneficial for the military.

31 posted on 12/12/01 6:37 PM Pacific by Marduk
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You're right about the timing. But one could then make the case that since those areas in the end came under Muslim rule, the Khazar victories were irrelevant in the long run.

32 posted on 12/12/01 6:39 PM Pacific by Marduk
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"Hokum"

Indeed. This temptation to dumb our enemies down
leads to braggadocio and harsh suprises.

33 posted on 12/12/01 6:40 PM Pacific by gcruse
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That was over a thousand years ago, the French were a force to recon with less than 200 years ago, look at their reputation now. Islam is stuck in the sixth century, the cry of war camels aren't very effective against an armor division.

34 posted on 12/12/01 6:40 PM Pacific by hsszionist
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I think that one thing to be taken into account is the fact that the Arab armies are technologically behind Western Europe, the USA and Israel. This factor must certainly be taken into consideration before we come to any conlcusions about Arab culture.

The Arab Iraquis certainly put up a fight with the Iranians. In this case both sides were about evenly matched technologically.

Another possibility is that the Arab armies might have inferior leadership to that of other countries. This was hinted at previously, when someone mentioned how the officers are picked from royal bloodlines. In Arab countries the officers are often picked from the ruling ethnic minority. This is inevitable because many Arab countries are ruled by ethnic minorities and if they allowed the ethnic majority to take power in the military, the regime might collapse.

35 posted on 12/12/01 6:43 PM Pacific by Marduk
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You forget poor leadership. Imagine if Hitler let his generals do the decisionmaking and Hirohito dumped Tojo as Premier in favor of Yamamoto in October 1941.

Ifs are for children, however history has shown an outnumbered people can conquer and maintain empires for centuries.

36 posted on 12/12/01 6:44 PM Pacific by lavrenti
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The officer corps in most Arab countries are substandard. Jordan and Oman are the rare exceptions.

37 posted on 12/12/01 6:46 PM Pacific by lavrenti
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Programmed since birth, probably partially payed for with peace proceeds from the Ben and Jerry's ice cream company, with the remaining funding from UNICEF.

38 posted on 12/12/01 6:46 PM Pacific by hsszionist
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So how come these "cowards" seem to produce more people willing to die in suicide attacks per capita than any other people?

They don't, actually. The Hindu Tamils on Sri Lanka almost certainly hold the current "suicide bomber per-capita" title.

The Tamil Tigers probably crank out more suicide attacks in a month than Hizbollah and Hamas do combined in a year. Just doesn't make the US news.

39 posted on 12/12/01 6:47 PM Pacific by John H K
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40 posted on 12/12/01 6:48 PM Pacific by Cacique
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To sacrifice one's life for a cause is no way cowardly.

You think they're sacrificing their lives for a "cause."

I think they're losers who are checking out because they've got nothing to live for (and they'll get 72 virgins in the next life).

The Arabs may have a lot of flaws but I donb't think we can legitimately consider them cowards.

Blowing one's self to bits while killing innocent women and children is the essence of cowardice.

Arab fighters are gutless: witness the supposedly invincible Republican Guard in 1991, who were surrrendering to CNN photographers, and the fearsome Taliban, who were defecting or giving up cities when the Northern Alliance were ten miles from town.

You can admire the Arabs if you want.

Me, I think we could take the entire Arab world in eighteen months.

41 posted on 12/12/01 6:49 PM Pacific by sinkspur
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Oh they're flying the jets alright, running as fast as the afterburners will propel them.

42 posted on 12/12/01 6:49 PM Pacific by hsszionist
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Nahh, James Michner actually nailed it in The Source (only one of his books that I actually finished). The problem is that Arabs are organized in small groups that usually hate each other, and they believe very strongly in the black market. Small groups of Arabs kick major butt (check Lawrence of Arabia, he tore ass all over the peninsula), but when you put enough of them together to maybe defeat a nation the infighting starts and the black market sales (which always start with theft) starts and the whole thing falls apart.

They're also not into the hierarchical organizations that have defined western military forces since Rome. While many of the Arab nations use the rank structure they just aren't into the structured deployment and command methods we use.

43 posted on 12/12/01 6:49 PM Pacific by discostu
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I would also note that Arab armies strike me as undisciplined.

I remember reading about how the Arabs, after a victory in the recent past, went into a city shooting the machine guns in the air. This kind of undiscipline isn't found in other armies.

So I would also suggest a lack of discipline as a factor.

44 posted on 12/12/01 6:50 PM Pacific by Marduk
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I don't know about the Muslims in general -- Afghanis aren't Arabs, BTW, though many of Al Qaeda's fighters are Arabs -- but with regard to the present conflict it can be explained simply, by the comment by either Bin Laden or Mullah Omar (I forget which) that their fighters are "eager to die," while the Americans are "eager to live."

Whoever said it didn't realize that while most of us Americans are eager to live, many of us are willing to put our lives on the line, in order to live our lives as we see fit. We see this again in Israel, where the Muslim terrorists rush to martyrdom, while the Jews of Israel do what they have to to live their lives as they see fit.

Those eager to die will rush to embrace it. Those willing to risk death, but preferring survival, are willing and able to fulfil the desires of enemies or are eager to die. There are differences in technology and organization that have made this conflict easier. However, even with even technology, the American/Israeli/Western attitude would most likely triumph over that of the Muslim terrorists.

45 posted on 12/12/01 6:52 PM Pacific by Celtjew Libertarian
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"However, The Ottomans did not force conversions, except on the boys who were kidnapped to form the Janissary corps."

My understanding is that the Jannissaries were allowed to stay Christian. That's ebcause they were technically slaves of the Sultan but by Islamic law only non-Muslims can be slaves. So if the Sultan wanted the Jannisaries as slaves he couldn't let them convert.

46 posted on 12/12/01 6:52 PM Pacific by Marduk
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"Imagine if Hitler let his generals do the decisionmaking and Hirohito dumped Tojo as Premier in favor of Yamamoto in October 1941."

IF Hilter had let his generals do the decision-making he wouldn't have conquered France in 1940. The generals favored the orthodox attack. It was Hitler that insisted on the startegy that brought them victory.

If he had let his general do the decision-making the Eastern Front would have collpased in December of 1941 when the Russians counter-attacked. Hitler's orders to fight to the death there stabilized the line. The generals wanted to retreat, which might have resulted in a rout.

The above two episodes where Hitler was proven right over the generals made him over-confident and led him to make some stupid decisions such as the order not to retreat from Stalingrad.

47 posted on 12/12/01 6:55 PM Pacific by Marduk
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So how come these "cowards" seem to produce more people willing to die in suicide attacks per capita than any other people?

What could be more cowardly than suicide?
I suppose the these guys in the news who kill their x-wives then commit suicide are "brave" men?
Disgruntled employees who shoot-up their fellow workers then put a bullet in their own head in the parking lot are great examples of "courage"???
What a sick and backward definition of bravery.

48 posted on 12/12/01 6:56 PM Pacific by Jorge
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