Sexuality and Terrorism




( 20:47)


March 8, 2002 Friday



Transcript # 030806cb.256


Interview With Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz



 GUESTS: Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz



 BYLINE: Bill O'Reilly







 O'REILLY: In the "Back of the Book" segment tonight, there's a course being taught at Cal State Hayward. It's called the sexuality of terrorism. Some say the  course is anti-American. Joining us now from San Francisco is the instructor, Professor Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz, author of the book

" OutlawWoman."



 All right, professor, what is this course now? What are you trying to get across to the kids?



 ROXANNE DUNBAR-ORTIZ, SEXUALITY OF TERRORISM PROFESSOR: Well, first of all, it's not about kinky sex. It's a theoretical course about the relationship of gender and organized violence, whether that be terrorism or militaries.



 Throughout history, men have been socialized to be aggressors, to go off and die in wars for usually people who have selfish motives. And it's on -- terrorism is really on a continuum that has its roots in the oppression of women and violence against women. And that's the first thing.



 And secondly, I think that can change. There are models for change for conflict resolution. Feminism...



 O'REILLY: But where does the sexual component come in?



 DUNBAR-ORTIZ: Well, the sexual component is who -- you know, just look at who the terrorists were and their repressed sexuality. The fact that they don't even allow women at their funerals or in their presence.



 O'REILLY: So they were frustrated because they didn't have healthy sex lives and that's why they want to kill us?



 DUNBAR-ORTIZ: No, not at all. I mean, I think yes, but I think it's the same for our military men. I think it's organized violence. It channels men into roles that  usually get them killed very young. So I think probably those terrorists, many of them were victims, just like many of our soldiers who have died.



 O'REILLY: All right, but where does self-defense come in? You see? I mean, sure, there's violence in the world, but most of the violence has a perpetrator and a  defender. Now, are you tying all of them in together?



 DUNBAR-ORTIZ: Well, you know, I am a historian, but you don't really have to be a historian to look back 20 years and ask who trained the mujahideen?

Who made psychopathic, sociopathic killers out of these people in the Cold War. And now it's come back to haunt us.



 O'REILLY: Well, I mean, I think that was because they were defending their country against Russia, was it not?



 DUNBAR-ORTIZ: Well, we armed them to defend themselves against...



 O'REILLY: Against an invader?



 DUNBAR-ORTIZ: No, against an Afghani government.



 O'REILLY: No, they...



 DUNBAR-ORTIZ: ...that had ties with the Soviet Union.



 O'REILLY: Professor, we got to be -- if you are a historian, let's be accurate here. We armed them to defend themselves against an invading nation, the Soviet Union. All right? That's what we did. So once again, you had a perpetrator, Soviet Union, seeking world dominance, and a defender, the Afghans. Now the Afghans  turned out to be lunatics, but is that our fault?






 O'REILLY: It is?



 DUNBAR-ORTIZ: Before the invasion, before the Cold War actually it was a proxy war, one of the proxy wars like Angola, like Nicaragua, like Mozambique. The proxy wars all over the world in the Cold War. And the U.S. has as much responsibility as the Soviet Union in these proxy wars.



 O'REILLY: All right, I think we'll disagree about that.






 O'REILLY: But let's get back to the sexual component. I'm not getting that. I mean, I'm seeing that we have military people in this country that are defending the  country, all right. So we're attacked by terrorists, and they kill 3,000 Americans. And then we go and we try to kill them, so

they won't do it again. So you, professor, will be -- and your class will be safe. Now, where is this sex component in that?



 DUNBAR-ORTIZ: Well, first of all, in the course, and in the work that I do in international human rights, we're trying to seek ways that will prevent these things from happening. What's happening right now, and the way it's being dealt with, we have no idea if it was necessary to do it this way because we never tried anything differently.



 O'REILLY: So you're objecting to our response to the terrorists, who killed the people?



 DUNBAR-ORTIZ: Well, I certainly think there was that month period of time when many other things were considered, including talks.



 O'REILLY: Talks?



 DUNBAR-ORTIZ: And interventions by some of the Arab governments.



 O'REILLY: Do any of your students challenge you? If I were in your class, I mean, I'd be all over you, professor. I mean, figuratively, you know.



 DUNBAR-ORTIZ: Of course they do.



 O'REILLY: Because this is nuts in a sense that I'm sitting here at Cal State Hayward and I'm in a class, accredited class. And you're trying to tell me that we should  have talked about a response after 3,000 of our people are in the street. You know, I'm going, whoa, wait a minute. The government has a responsibility to act to protect us and doesn't protect us, professor.



 DUNBAR-ORTIZ: You know, disagreeing with what this government does and disagreeing with you doesn't make me a nut, nor does it make me a traitor.



 O'REILLY: No, it doesn't, but it might...



 DUNBAR-ORTIZ: OK. So let's not use those terms.



 O'REILLY: I didn't say you were a nut, and I didn't you were a traitor.



 DUNBAR-ORTIZ: You said it was nuts.



 O'REILLY: I said it was, not you are. Big difference.



 DUNBAR-ORTIZ: Well, it's not nuts.



 O'REILLY: It isn't?



 DUNBAR-ORTIZ: You know, to look at other ways of conflict resolution rather than war is not nuts. This happens...



 O'REILLY: Well, let me -- I'm going to give you the last word. If your family is gunned down in the street, professor, and you can stop another family from the same fate, and you don't, but want to talk about it, that's nuts. And that's exactly what happened. You get the last word.



 DUNBAR-ORTIZ: Well, I just wonder, am I supposed to then be a vigilante and go kill someone else? I mean where does the cycle of violence end? And I would  like to mention this is International Women's Day. And women have an important role that -- I mean, right now, it's like Super Bowl Sunday every day to go through  this. And like a bunch of soccer thugs running around saying they're patriots and supporting the war.



 O'REILLY: All right. Well, I think that's an offensive comment, but that's all right. You're entitled to it. This is America. And we have freedom here to say that. But if we didn't fight for that freedom, professor, you would be going like this, Hail, Hitler. And we appreciate your time. Next, we'll wrap things up with the "Most  Ridiculous Item of the Day," California

and some of your mail.






February 20, 2002   Wednesday



Transcript # 022005cb.253




 HEADLINE: Interview With Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz



 GUESTS: Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz



 BYLINE: Sean Hannity, Alan Colmes







 HANNITY: And since September 11, college campuses all across the country have offered new courses on topics like the Middle East, national security, the Islamic  religion. But has Cal State gone too far?



 Joining us from San Francisco, Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz. She is a Cal State professor who teaches a course entitled "The Sexuality of Terrorism." Would you like to  explain that?






 HANNITY: Good evening.



 DUNBAR-ORTIZ: I myself was a victim of terrorism in 1981, in December 1981, when the plane I was boarding was blown up in front of me in the Mexican airport.



 This was the first salvo of the Contra war. And right away -- I have taught at Cal State Hayward for 28 years. I created a course about terrorism and sexuality,  trying...



 HANNITY: You just -- because we're very limited on time, Professor. This is not a one-hour lecture. Just tie it together. Sexuality and terrorism, where's the tie-in?






 Well, I think one way of putting it is that terrorism is on a continuum that starts with violence within the family, battery against women, violence against women in the  society, all the way up to organized militaries that are supported by taxpayer money. Terrorism...



 HANNITY: Would you not want an organized military?



 DUNBAR-ORTIZ: Ideally, I believe human beings have to learn how to work out conflict and issues through negotiation.



 HANNITY: If only the Soviet Union would have been nice to us, we could be nice to them.



 COLMES: Let's get to the erotic angle.



 Do you believe that these guys who wage war get some kind of erotic thrill out of the war?



 DUNBAR-ORTIZ: Absolutely.



 HANNITY: Oh, boy.



 DUNBAR-ORTIZ: Just to give you some anecdotal evidence of that, why do the bomber pilots right now in Afghanistan and the Gulf War, why are they shown pornographic videos before they go on their sorties?



 COLMES: So you are saying they get sexually excited in the course of doing what they're doing?



 DUNBAR-ORTIZ: That's right. Absolutely.



 COLMES: Do you have any evidence of that?



 DUNBAR-ORTIZ: Well, like I say, why do they show them pornographic videos?



 COLMES: Well, I didn't know that they saw pornography prior to going up.



 DUNBAR-ORTIZ: Yes, they do. Yes they do, as a matter of practice.



 COLMES: Now, you also believe -- now, look, there might be some link here. These are patriarchal societies, like the Taliban, very male- oriented, no rights for  women, the idea that this is the way that they conduct themselves. And one of the things we fought for in Afghanistan was freedom. And women have freedom as a  result of what the United States has done there. Is there any advantage to that?



 DUNBAR-ORTIZ: Well, there's a fallacy there.



 In 1978, before the Cold War moved its theater to both Central America and Afghanistan , the women of Afghanistan , the Parliament in Afghanistan was made up 40  percent of women. The burka did not exist in Afghanistan . That's how far backwards they've gone.



 And the United States trained the Mujahedeen. And the United States trained the people who put women back in this situation that...



 HANNITY: They did that to fight back against the former Soviet Union, which was invading an innocent country. So we've got to put it in context.



 By the way, just as reminder as a public service announcement, ladies and gentlemen, you may want to choose your kids' colleges very carefully.



 We'll continue with the professor on the other side of the break.



 COLMES: Welcome back to HANNITY & COLMES. I'm Alan Colmes.



 We continue with Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz, who teaches a course: "Sexuality and Terrorism."



 Would we be better off globally if women were in charge of every country?



 DUNBAR-ORTIZ: We would be better off if the feminist values, that not all women -- women are also a part of the patriarchal system. But as women have become liberated and developed ideas for global peace, men can learn these as well.


 But it would be a whole different structure of society. For instance, right now -- not to make a pun -- but we really have the fox guarding the chicken house in the  administration. In this administration are some of the most documented terrorists on the face of the Earth.



 COLMES: There are terrorists in the Bush administration?



 DUNBAR-ORTIZ: Absolutely.



 COLMES: Who are they? And why are they terrorists?



 DUNBAR-ORTIZ: Mr. John Negroponte, who is the ambassador to the U.N., was the ambassador to Honduras who directed the Contra terrorist war. There's Otto Reich, who's in charge of Latin America for the State Department. Elliott Abrams...



 HANNITY: Hey, Professor, before we go through this massive list of yours, you know, it would almost be comical if it wasn't so serious.


 You know, there are a lot of brave men who fought and died for this country, not because they were getting some sexual thrill fighting a war, which, sadly, is what you're teaching your students, or indoctrinating your students out there in your left-wing university. You're trivializing what

brave men do every day to fight and defend freedom, even the right for silly professors to come up with cockamamie ideas.



 DUNBAR-ORTIZ: Well, I think this freedom has not come automatically. And it has come not through soldiers fighting nearly as much as...



 HANNITY: Yes it has. Yes, it has.



 DUNBAR-ORTIZ: ... as workers...



 HANNITY: Giving their blood, ma'am.



 DUNBAR-ORTIZ: ... and as workers organizing and giving their blood where troops have been called out against them in their strikes in the early days, against the  mine workers. These were U.S. troops that were doing that.



 HANNITY: These were troops that fought back Nazism and fascism and Japan and totalitarianism, ma'am.



 DUNBAR-ORTIZ: OK, but these were...



 HANNITY: And, by the way, and these are troops that are now fighting against terror here, ma'am. And they're shedding their blood not to get a sexual thrill in some  perverted idea that you may have in your mind, perhaps what's in your heart, but these are brave men defending freedom. And perhaps you would have unilaterally disarmed the United States instead of engaged the Soviet Union.



 COLMES: We only have a few seconds here, Professor.



 HANNITY: I can't believe you teach on a college campus.



 DUNBAR-ORTIZ: The U.S. military does not have such a great reputation. What about the Congressional Medals of Honor who were given to those who murdered people at Wounded Knee?



 HANNITY: I can't believe you teach at a college campus. I can't believe it.



 COLMES: That's it for tonight.



 That has a nice ring to it: Left-Wing University, LWU.



 That's all the time we have left for tonight.