SHOW: THE O'REILLY
FACTOR
(
20:47)
March 8, 2002 Friday
Transcript # 030806cb.256
Interview With
Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz
GUESTS: Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz
BYLINE: Bill O'Reilly
BODY: THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT.
THIS COPY MAY NOT
BE IN ITS FINAL
FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
O'REILLY: In the "Back of the Book" segment tonight, there's a course
being taught at Cal State Hayward. It's called the sexuality of terrorism.
Some say the course is anti-American.
Joining us now from
San Francisco
is the instructor, Professor Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz, author of the book
"
OutlawWoman."
All right, professor, what is this course now? What are you trying
to get across to the kids?
ROXANNE DUNBAR-ORTIZ, SEXUALITY OF TERRORISM PROFESSOR: Well, first
of all, it's not about kinky sex. It's a theoretical course about the relationship
of gender and organized violence, whether that be terrorism or militaries.
Throughout history, men have been socialized to be aggressors, to
go off and die in wars for usually people who have selfish motives. And it's
on -- terrorism is really on a continuum that has its roots in the oppression
of women and violence against women. And that's the first thing.
And secondly, I think that can change. There are models for change
for conflict resolution. Feminism...
O'REILLY: But where does the sexual component come in?
DUNBAR-ORTIZ: Well, the sexual component is who -- you know, just
look at who the terrorists were and their repressed sexuality. The fact that
they don't even allow women at their funerals or in their presence.
O'REILLY: So they were frustrated because they didn't have healthy
sex lives and that's why they want to kill us?
DUNBAR-ORTIZ: No, not at all. I mean, I think yes, but I think it's
the same for our military men. I think it's organized violence. It channels
men into roles that usually get them
killed very young. So I think probably those terrorists, many of them were
victims, just like many of our soldiers who have died.
O'REILLY: All right, but where does self-defense come in? You see?
I mean, sure, there's violence in the world, but most of the violence has
a perpetrator and a defender. Now,
are you tying all of them in together?
DUNBAR-ORTIZ: Well, you know, I am a historian, but you don't really
have to be a historian to look back 20 years and ask who trained the
mujahideen?
Who made psychopathic,
sociopathic killers out of these people in
the Cold War. And now it's come back to haunt us.
O'REILLY: Well, I mean, I think that was because they were defending
their country against Russia, was it not?
DUNBAR-ORTIZ: Well, we armed them to defend themselves against...
O'REILLY: Against an invader?
DUNBAR-ORTIZ: No, against an Afghani government.
O'REILLY: No, they...
DUNBAR-ORTIZ: ...that had ties with the Soviet Union.
O'REILLY: Professor, we got to be -- if you are a historian, let's
be accurate here. We armed them to defend themselves against an invading
nation, the Soviet Union. All right? That's what we did. So once again, you
had a perpetrator, Soviet Union, seeking world dominance, and a defender,
the Afghans. Now the Afghans turned
out to be lunatics, but is that our fault?
DUNBAR-ORTIZ: Yes.
O'REILLY: It is?
DUNBAR-ORTIZ: Before the invasion, before the Cold War actually it
was a proxy war, one of the proxy wars like Angola, like Nicaragua, like
Mozambique. The proxy wars all over the world in the Cold War. And the U.S.
has as much responsibility as the Soviet Union in these proxy wars.
O'REILLY: All right, I think we'll disagree about that.
DUNBAR-ORTIZ: OK.
O'REILLY: But let's get back to the sexual component. I'm not getting
that. I mean, I'm seeing that we have military people in this country that
are defending the country, all right.
So we're attacked by terrorists, and they kill 3,000 Americans. And then
we go and we try to kill them, so
they won't do it
again. So you, professor, will be -- and your class will be safe. Now, where
is this sex component in that?
DUNBAR-ORTIZ: Well, first of all, in the course, and in the work
that I do in international human rights, we're trying to seek ways that will
prevent these things from happening. What's happening right now, and the
way it's being dealt with, we have no idea if it was necessary to do it this
way because we never tried anything differently.
O'REILLY: So you're objecting to our response to the terrorists,
who killed the people?
DUNBAR-ORTIZ: Well, I certainly think there was that month period
of time when many other things were considered, including talks.
O'REILLY: Talks?
DUNBAR-ORTIZ: And interventions by some of the Arab governments.
O'REILLY: Do any of your students challenge you? If I were in your
class, I mean, I'd be all over you, professor. I mean, figuratively, you
know.
DUNBAR-ORTIZ: Of course they do.
O'REILLY: Because this is nuts in a sense that I'm sitting here at
Cal State Hayward and I'm in a class, accredited class. And you're trying
to tell me that we should have talked
about a response after 3,000 of our people are in the street. You know, I'm
going, whoa, wait a minute. The government has a responsibility to act to
protect us and doesn't protect us, professor.
DUNBAR-ORTIZ: You know, disagreeing with what this government does
and disagreeing with you doesn't make me a nut, nor does it make me a traitor.
O'REILLY: No, it doesn't, but it might...
DUNBAR-ORTIZ: OK. So let's not use those terms.
O'REILLY: I didn't say you were a nut, and I didn't you were a traitor.
DUNBAR-ORTIZ: You said it was nuts.
O'REILLY: I said it was, not you are. Big difference.
DUNBAR-ORTIZ: Well, it's not nuts.
O'REILLY: It isn't?
DUNBAR-ORTIZ: You know, to look at other ways of conflict resolution
rather than war is not nuts. This happens...
O'REILLY: Well, let me -- I'm going to give you the last word. If
your family is gunned down in the street, professor, and you can stop another
family from the same fate, and you don't, but want to talk about it, that's
nuts. And that's exactly what happened. You get the last word.
DUNBAR-ORTIZ: Well, I just wonder, am I supposed to then be a vigilante
and go kill someone else? I mean where does the cycle of violence end? And
I would like to mention this is International
Women's Day. And women have an important role that -- I mean, right now,
it's like Super Bowl Sunday every day to go through
this. And like a bunch of soccer thugs running around saying they're
patriots and supporting the war.
O'REILLY: All right. Well, I think that's an offensive comment, but
that's all right. You're entitled to it. This is America. And we have freedom
here to say that. But if we didn't fight for that freedom, professor, you
would be going like this, Hail, Hitler. And we appreciate your time. Next,
we'll wrap things up with the "Most
Ridiculous Item of the Day," California
and some of your
mail.
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SHOW: FOX HANNITY
& COLMES
(21:50)
February 20, 2002
Wednesday
Transcript # 022005cb.253
HEADLINE: Interview With Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz
GUESTS: Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz
BYLINE: Sean Hannity, Alan
Colmes
THIS IS A RUSH
TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL
FORM AND MAY BE
UPDATED.
HANNITY: And since September 11, college campuses all across the
country have offered new courses on topics like the Middle East, national
security, the Islamic religion. But
has Cal State gone too far?
Joining us from San Francisco, Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz. She is a Cal
State professor who teaches a course entitled "The Sexuality of Terrorism."
Would you like to explain that?
ROXANNE DUNBAR-ORTIZ, PROFESSOR, CAL STATE HAYWARD: Yes, sir. Good
evening.
HANNITY: Good evening.
DUNBAR-ORTIZ: I myself was a victim of terrorism in 1981, in December
1981, when the plane I was boarding was blown up in front of me in the Mexican
airport.
This was the first salvo of the Contra war. And right away -- I have
taught at Cal State Hayward for 28 years. I created a course about terrorism
and sexuality, trying...
HANNITY: You just -- because we're very limited on time, Professor.
This is not a one-hour lecture. Just tie it together. Sexuality and terrorism,
where's the tie-in?
DUNBAR-ORTIZ: OK.
Well, I think one way of putting it is that terrorism is on a continuum
that starts with violence within the family, battery against women, violence
against women in the society, all
the way up to organized militaries that are supported by taxpayer money.
Terrorism...
HANNITY: Would you not want an organized military?
DUNBAR-ORTIZ: Ideally, I believe human beings have to learn how to
work out conflict and issues through negotiation.
HANNITY: If only the
Soviet Union would have
been nice to us, we could be nice to them.
COLMES: Let's get to the erotic angle.
Do you believe that these guys who wage war get some kind of erotic
thrill out of the war?
DUNBAR-ORTIZ: Absolutely.
HANNITY: Oh, boy.
DUNBAR-ORTIZ: Just to give you some anecdotal evidence of that, why
do the bomber pilots right now in
Afghanistan
and the Gulf War, why are they shown pornographic videos before they go
on their sorties?
COLMES: So you are saying they get sexually excited in the course
of doing what they're doing?
DUNBAR-ORTIZ: That's right. Absolutely.
COLMES: Do you have any evidence of that?
DUNBAR-ORTIZ: Well, like I say, why do they show them pornographic
videos?
COLMES: Well, I didn't know that they saw pornography prior to going
up.
DUNBAR-ORTIZ: Yes, they do. Yes they do, as a matter of practice.
COLMES: Now, you also believe -- now, look, there might be some link
here. These are patriarchal societies, like the Taliban, very male- oriented,
no rights for women, the idea that
this is the way that they conduct themselves. And one of the things we fought
for in
Afghanistan
was freedom. And women have freedom as a
result of what the
United States
has done there. Is there any advantage to that?
DUNBAR-ORTIZ: Well, there's a fallacy there.
In 1978, before the Cold War moved its theater to both
Central America and
Afghanistan
, the women of
Afghanistan
, the Parliament in
Afghanistan
was made up 40 percent of women.
The burka did not exist in
Afghanistan
. That's how far backwards they've gone.
And the
United States
trained the Mujahedeen. And the
United States
trained the people who put women back in this situation that...
HANNITY: They did that to fight back against the former
Soviet Union, which was
invading an innocent country. So we've got to put it in context.
By the way, just as reminder as a public service announcement, ladies
and gentlemen, you may want to choose your kids' colleges very carefully.
We'll continue with the professor on the other side of the break.
COLMES: Welcome back to HANNITY & COLMES. I'm Alan
Colmes.
We continue with Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz, who teaches a course: "Sexuality
and Terrorism."
Would we be better off globally if women were in charge of every
country?
DUNBAR-ORTIZ: We would be better off if the feminist values, that
not all women -- women are also a part of the patriarchal system. But as
women have become liberated and developed ideas for global peace, men can
learn these as well.
But it would be a whole different structure of society. For instance,
right now -- not to make a pun -- but we really have the fox guarding the
chicken house in the administration.
In this administration are some of the most documented terrorists on the
face of the Earth.
COLMES: There are terrorists in the Bush administration?
DUNBAR-ORTIZ: Absolutely.
COLMES: Who are they? And why are they terrorists?
DUNBAR-ORTIZ: Mr. John Negroponte, who is the ambassador to the U.N.,
was the ambassador to
Honduras
who directed the Contra terrorist war. There's Otto Reich, who's in charge
of Latin America
for the State Department. Elliott Abrams...
HANNITY: Hey, Professor, before we go through this massive list of
yours, you know, it would almost be comical if it wasn't so serious.
You know, there are a lot of brave men who fought and died for this
country, not because they were getting some sexual thrill fighting a war,
which, sadly, is what you're teaching your students, or indoctrinating your
students out there in your left-wing university. You're trivializing what
brave men do every
day to fight and defend freedom, even the right for silly professors to come
up with cockamamie ideas.
DUNBAR-ORTIZ: Well, I think this freedom has not come automatically.
And it has come not through soldiers fighting nearly as much as...
HANNITY: Yes it has. Yes, it has.
DUNBAR-ORTIZ: ... as workers...
HANNITY: Giving their blood, ma'am.
DUNBAR-ORTIZ: ... and as workers organizing and giving their blood
where troops have been called out against them in their strikes in the early
days, against the mine workers. These
were
U.S.
troops that were doing that.
HANNITY: These were troops that fought back Nazism and fascism and
Japan
and totalitarianism, ma'am.
DUNBAR-ORTIZ: OK, but these were...
HANNITY: And, by the way, and these are troops that are now fighting
against terror here, ma'am. And they're shedding their blood not to get a
sexual thrill in some perverted idea
that you may have in your mind, perhaps what's in your heart, but these are
brave men defending freedom. And perhaps you would have unilaterally disarmed
the United States instead of engaged the Soviet Union.
COLMES: We only have a few seconds here, Professor.
HANNITY: I can't believe you teach on a college campus.
DUNBAR-ORTIZ: The U.S. military does not have such a great reputation.
What about the Congressional Medals of Honor who were given to those who
murdered people at Wounded Knee?
HANNITY: I can't believe you teach at a college campus. I can't believe
it.
COLMES: That's it for tonight.
That has a nice ring to it: Left-Wing University, LWU.
That's all the time we have left for tonight.